What's your Viewpoints on Baptism?

Just my opinion. Don't think babies ought to be baptised. In the Bible it talks about baptism and it is just a public declaration of your faith that you have accepted Jesus Christ as your savior. I don't think we should be forcing children to be baptised before they are old enough to know what is going on full emersion and public.

I happen to agree with that. After all, when Jesus was baptized he was an adult, in public, and fully immersed. I wonder why some Christian churches will sometimes do it privately.

I do not see either of these to be biblically defensible. In fact, from the writings in the book of Acts and according to the early church fathers baptism was a necessary rite that should not be separated, as it was part and parcel to being saved. Acts 2:38
New International Version (©1984)
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. According to some theologians the article "and" cannot be separated in the text and so required people to be baptized for the forgiveness of sins. The article (abbreviated art) is a word that combines with a noun to indicate the type of reference being made by the noun. Articles specify the grammatical definiteness of the noun. So in this text it is a cogent argument to say that the two words repent and baptize are not separately exclusive but both are necessary for remission of sins. Something to ponder.

Water baptism serves to show the world and yourself your decision to submit to the Lord. I believe that since children have a grace period before the age of accountability they should also have a say in their water baptism. true baptism comes with the Holy Spirit. Just my thoughts.

I totally agree with that. I think we all agree that baptism is necessary. There's something I've always wondered about though. What do you think happens to people like those caught in the towers on 911? I think there may have been some last minute sinner's prayers going on in there, do you think they went to heaven? They obviously didn't have the chance for a water baptism before they died.

I think acceptance of Christ and repentance is really the bottom line. If they did that then I believe they are in heaven.

Yeah, I think you're right about that. They are, after all, baptized in the Holy Spirit once they do that.

AMEN
and
Amen!!

God Bless

There are particular traditions that insist on baptism for salvation and so when we do insist on the literal interpretation of Acts 2:38 there remains a point of being unable to argue any further. I myself at one point in time did worry about this but finally came to realize that if baptism was such an important and necessary thing then what do we say about all those pre-new testament patriarchs and others who were not baptized. Are they not in heaven? Furthermore, if baptism was absolutely necessary for salvation then why did Paul say in I Cor. 1:17 New International Version (©1984)
For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel….

I'm thinking you've got a good point silverglass. In Matthew 3:11 John the Baptist states, "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." John the Baptist, was promising that when the Messiah came He would baptize them with the Holy Spirit. It was a promise of the indwelling of the Spirit of God. This was confirmed by Peter in Acts 11:16. Therefore, we baptize by water as a symbolic act. We are both proclaiming to the world that we believe in Jesus, and using a physical gesture of how, once we accept Jesus, we are baptized in the Holy Spirit.

Lora, the point about last minute repentance( as in (9/11) reminds me of the men crucified with Jesus Christ, and how He promised one of them to be with Him in heaven. God being as Wonderful as He is makes a way for that.

Awe, so true! I hadn't thought of that.

voiceoftruelove stated on of the poiints I would make. The other is this, that Jesus said that the TRADITIONS of Man has made the Word to no avail. Too many churches and denominations teach tradition for doctrine, playing pick and choose from a few verses. From this writers perspective, "In the beginning God" to "come quickly, Lord, Amen" and everything in between HAS to be believed or the Word is in vain to that person. Time, place, and cercumstance willl be different for everyone. That is why the Word of God is a living word so that it can reach everyone where they are. None are drawn except the they are first drawn by the Holy Spirit. Public declaration of water baptism is wonderful if possible, but we can't just throw out a blanket mandate for it. That is legalism, amd we are not under the law.

"Lora, the point about last minute repentance( as in (9/11) reminds me of the men crucified with Jesus Christ, and how He promised one of them to be with Him in heaven. God being as Wonderful as He is makes a way for that."

"voiceoftruelove stated on of the points I would make. The other is this, that Jesus said that the TRADITIONS of Man has made the Word to no avail. Too many churches and denominations teach tradition for doctrine, playing pick and choose from a few verses. From this writers perspective, "
In the beginning God" to "come quickly, Lord, Amen" and everything in between HAS to be believed or the Word is in vain to that person. Time, place, and circumstance willl be different for everyone. That is why the Word of God is a living word so that it can reach everyone where they are. None are drawn except the they are first drawn by the Holy Spirit. Public declaration of water baptism is wonderful if possible, but we can't just throw out a blanket mandate for it. That is legalism, and we are not under the law."

Heading to your own cricifixion...how many times did you stumble, stagger and fall?
how many times...skinned your knees, take on further insult to injury?

yet everytime...
you got up...
picked up that heavy cross...
and walked

you walked teaching
from place to place

you walked...
having arisen
on the road from Jerusalem
to Emmaus

when we are called to...
"walk"
we have already received
Baptism.

How many
have been immersed...
received...
and fall?

The 'call'
is of Grace...
not...
by
following
proper
protocal

He began in a walk
teaching
He taught as He walked
He taught volumes
in the end...

without speaking






God Bless.

Matthew 28:19-24
New International Version (NIV)
In the book of Matthew Jesus commanded the following:
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
I am not making a formal statement with this verse but I am of the opinion that the closer one gets to the original message including the early writings of the church fathers the better understanding one has of the biblical message. The early church and the early church fathers believed the necessity of baptism and would not have seperated it as we moderns do.
I am of the opinion that Grace is necessary for salvation. However, if I examine the way the early church understood protocol in the book of Acts then I am constrained by that biblical narrative and here I am referring to Acts 2:38 Peter replied, "Repent (AND) be baptized, every one of you , in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.
This is backed up by the Bauer/Arndt/Gingrich/Danker, "A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament ...They agree that this is the proper way to translate this verse.

I was baptized as a child in the Catholic tradition, the Catholic church teaches "one" baptism.
I endured brutality in the Catholic church by the very people i thought i felt safe to be around. Things i'd thought i could escape from my childhood homelife. I grew angry and bitter in ways i was not aware of, it lived deep inside of me.

But the Word teaches...less we be be "born again."
Baptism by water did not avail me of any particular advantage of enlightenment as i and many others' like myself who had endured life changing atrocities (abuses) against us at very early ages in fact it was spiritual death and blindness meted out, it was a journey a reluctant one, it is Life...it is scripture being written in our hearts and minds through experiences to find our way when the time is ripe to know the gift of Grace but only when we are ready...have been prepared, trained to know it and see what has always been right in front of our nose.

To be gifted back a heart that had been turned to stone is beyond description by words of man.

Sometimes left brain and right brain can be so locked in a battle...they tumble by the Cross like tumbleweed directed by the whim of a random wind.

A year ago...was the first time i'd ever opened a Bible in earnest.
It is a guidebook...not a 'sears' assembly manual for an appliance.
Not a frog to be dissected on an examination table...it is alive and it has HEART!

If we could follow the law to the letter...Jesus' sacrifice would not have been necessary.
I cannot compete in quoted scriptures with you or any one else to prove my point, i can only attempt to live it as best i can knowing i'm doomed to fall short many more times.
And give God the Glory, let the theologians sort it all out...there are mouths to feed and people who need a hand extended to stand.

In the giving, in the doing, is where God meets us...he is the guy standing, sweating beside me when we unload food off of trucks for the needy.

When he was rolling up his sleeves I did not stop him to ask...
if he'd been circumsized or baptised?
There was just...
too much that needed to be done.



You seem to have more questions
than answers
I pray for you to find the answers you seek
but please try to understand...
the answers come
easily when you stop asking
only trust and believe
i was just as you except not as intellectual
i was shown many many things
when i stopped asking about them
actually had just about forgotten them
the things i write from my past are recovered memories
buried for a lifetime out of post-traumatic shock
i write about them hoping they might help someone who is where i was
there is no other reason to share such personal details
i could write things that would make satan blush
just for shock value or a sense of needing attention?
wish it really were that simple.


I will comment no further on this topic:

May God Bless you,
give you rest
ease your mind
and grant you his Peace.

Hi, I did not want to imply that I am struggling with this as I am not of the opinion that baptism is so important as to hold back remission of sins when it comes to the prayer of the sinner.
I am only pointing out that it was considered part and parcel of the way salvation was preached in the early church.
Now to be fair with others it is still considered part of our protocol. I am pretty sure that most people feel that they should be baptised if they have the opportunity. But again if it is not possible then I agree with you that it is not going to keep people out of heaven.
Now I am sympathic with your thoughts on the bible not being a "sears assembly manual". I can only say that what we moderns believe is based on what theologians have written. In other words, most of what we tend to believe has been handed down to us and unconsciously we are espousing traditional core beliefs that we have not developed on our own. So my concern is with what has been handed down and how I hear quite plainly the theism of Reformed Augustian theology being professed by laymen today. You might not believe this but when I examine the theology of new converts it is not something they interpreted themselves but what someone else is telling them and what someone else has told that person all the way back to the church fathers. If a salesperson asked you to buy a television from sears and said that the only one that is best is the sears brand would you believe the salesperson or would you do the research and see what other brands are available and then decide. You may think I am making too much of this but how would we defend ourselves against heresy if we left out the apologetic that has been handed down to us. 2 Timothy 2:15
New International Version (©1984)
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
In order to remain relevant to the world at large I consider it necessary to be able to respond intelligently to unbelievers with the inquiries that they might have. If we cannot talk intelligently about these issues they we are no longer relevant. We in effect are no longer the salt of the earth. We must walk wisely in a fallen world.
Wisdom is variously distinguished. It is either natural, moral, or sacred.
1. A natural wisdom is seen in finding out the secrets of nature. Aristotle was, by some of the ancients, called an eagle fallen from the clouds; because he had so profound an insight into the causes of things. This natural wisdom is adorning—but it is not sufficient to salvation.
2. A moral wisdom consists in two things—the rejection of those things which are harmful; and the choosing of those things which are beneficial. This is called prudence. Knowledge without prudence may do harm; many a man's wit has undone him, for lack of wisdom.
3. A sacred wisdom is knowing God, who is the supreme and sovereign Good. Greece was counted the eye of the world for wisdom, and Athens the eye of Greece; but neither of them knew God, Acts 17:23, "I found an altar with this inscription—To the unknown God." To know God, in whom is both truth and goodness, is the masterpiece of wisdom. 1 Chronicles 28:9, "And you, Solomon my son—know the God of your father." And this knowledge of God is through Christ. Christ is the looking-glass in which the face of God is seen, Colossians 1:15.
We know God rightly, when we know Him not only with a knowledge of speculation, but appropriation, Psalm 48:14, "This God is our God." This knowledge of God is the most sublime wisdom, therefore, it is called wisdom from above, James 3:17.
But to come nearer to the text and speak of the wisdom of the serpent: "Be wise as serpents."

Carl Diles wrote:

Public declaration of water baptism is wonderful if possible, but we can't just throw out a blanket mandate for it. That is legalism, and we are not under the law.

What a reassuring point you make. I think you are right on the mark with that one.

oneagleswings wrote:

Heading to your own cricifixion...how many times did you stumble, stagger and fall?
how many times...skinned your knees, take on further insult to injury?

yet everytime...
you got up...
picked up that heavy cross...
and walked

you walked teaching
from place to place

you walked...
having arisen
on the road from Jerusalem
to Emmaus

when we are called to...
"walk"
we have already received
Baptism.

How many
have been immersed...
received...
and fall?

The 'call'
is of Grace...
not...
by
following
proper
protocal

He began in a walk
teaching
He taught as He walked
He taught volumes
in the end...

without speaking






God Bless.

Beautifully put. That's a powerful piece. I especially loved the last stanza:

He began in a walk
teaching
He taught as He walked
He taught volumes
in the end...

silverglass wrote:

Hi, I did not want to imply that I am struggling with this as I am not of the opinion that baptism is so important as to hold back remission of sins when it comes to the prayer of the sinner.
I am only pointing out that it was considered part and parcel of the way salvation was preached in the early church.
Now to be fair with others it is still considered part of our protocol. I am pretty sure that most people feel that they should be baptised if they have the opportunity. But again if it is not possible then I agree with you that it is not going to keep people out of heaven.
Now I am sympathic with your thoughts on the bible not being a "sears assembly manual". I can only say that what we moderns believe is based on what theologians have written. In other words, most of what we tend to believe has been handed down to us and unconsciously we are espousing traditional core beliefs that we have not developed on our own. So my concern is with what has been handed down and how I hear quite plainly the theism of Reformed Augustian theology being professed by laymen today. You might not believe this but when I examine the theology of new converts it is not something they interpreted themselves but what someone else is telling them and what someone else has told that person all the way back to the church fathers. If a salesperson asked you to buy a television from sears and said that the only one that is best is the sears brand would you believe the salesperson or would you do the research and see what other brands are available and then decide. You may think I am making too much of this but how would we defend ourselves against heresy if we left out the apologetic that has been handed down to us. 2 Timothy 2:15
New International Version (©1984)
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
In order to remain relevant to the world at large I consider it necessary to be able to respond intelligently to unbelievers with the inquiries that they might have. If we cannot talk intelligently about these issues they we are no longer relevant. We in effect are no longer the salt of the earth. We must walk wisely in a fallen world.
Wisdom is variously distinguished. It is either natural, moral, or sacred.
1. A natural wisdom is seen in finding out the secrets of nature. Aristotle was, by some of the ancients, called an eagle fallen from the clouds; because he had so profound an insight into the causes of things. This natural wisdom is adorning—but it is not sufficient to salvation.
2. A moral wisdom consists in two things—the rejection of those things which are harmful; and the choosing of those things which are beneficial. This is called prudence. Knowledge without prudence may do harm; many a man's wit has undone him, for lack of wisdom.
3. A sacred wisdom is knowing God, who is the supreme and sovereign Good. Greece was counted the eye of the world for wisdom, and Athens the eye of Greece; but neither of them knew God, Acts 17:23, "I found an altar with this inscription—To the unknown God." To know God, in whom is both truth and goodness, is the masterpiece of wisdom. 1 Chronicles 28:9, "And you, Solomon my son—know the God of your father." And this knowledge of God is through Christ. Christ is the looking-glass in which the face of God is seen, Colossians 1:15.
We know God rightly, when we know Him not only with a knowledge of speculation, but appropriation, Psalm 48:14, "This God is our God." This knowledge of God is the most sublime wisdom, therefore, it is called wisdom from above, James 3:17.
But to come nearer to the text and speak of the wisdom of the serpent: "Be wise as serpents."

Frankly, I'm not interested in what philosophical minds have said in the
past, nor have I put much stock in what theologians theorize about. I
have read and reread the Bible for myself more times than I can count.
Therefore, that's what I tend to fall back on. There were many
philosophers who were inaccurate as well as theologians. And, on the
flip side, there have been many who were very right. I test what I hear
by the Word of God and go on that. The main message of the Bible is
clear: It's all about Jesus, who He is, what He did, and what He will do
in the future. The Bible begins and ends with Jesus and that is where
we must keep our eyes.

Some hermeneutic principals to ponder:

As told by Charles R. Williams ( A collogue of C.S. Lewis)
I would advise anyone who finds modern biblical scholarship unhelpful to immerse himself in the Fathers directly and in the original context. If we then read the scriptures adopting, if only for the moment, their mindset, their presuppositions, and their methods, the scriptures will be opened up to us in a new and fruitful way.
We moderns can find allegorical interpretation, for example, somewhat farfetched. But it is clear to me that some of what the apostles intended to teach cannot be understood from a strictly literal reading of the text. The apostles themselves do not take a
concrete, literal approach to interpreting the Old Testament. Imitating the thought processes of the Fathers, who are much closer culturally to the apostles, opens our eyes to more of the New Testament's message.
In the final analysis, it is difficult to fully comprehend the gospel message presented in the scriptures without realizing that the early Church, for which the New Testament was written, believed in baptismal regeneration, the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist (understood as sacrificial) and the Church as an organic structure put in place by the apostles.

On Justification by Faith
Two analysts of very different stripes articulated one major weakness in the expression of Lewis’s soteriology. A. N. Wilson asserted: "If the mark of a reborn evangelical is a devotion to the Epistles of Paul and, in particular, to the doctrine of Justification by Faith, then there can have been few Christian converts less evangelical than Lewis." In fact, the Methodist minister who reviewed Mere Christianity claimed that the book "does not really mention…the central Christian doctrine of Justification by Faith." From the other end of the theological spectrum, J. I. Packer spoke of Lewis’s "failure ever to mention justification by faith when speaking of the forgiveness of sins, and his apparent hospitality to baptismal regeneration…." On one of his radio broadcasts Lewis declared: "There are three things that spread the Christ life to us: baptism, belief, and…the Lord’s Supper." His meaning and his order of arrangement of the items are unclear.

The Fate of Moral Non-Christians
Beyond the parameters of traditional Arminianism, however, Lewis expected that some non-Christians would be saved. "Though all salvation is through Jesus, we need not conclude that He cannot save those who have not explicitly accepted Him in this life." On the radio he announced: "We do know that no [one] can be saved except through Christ; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved through Him."
In the children’s Narnia series, the lion Aslan is Lewis’s Christ-figure. In The Last Battle deceivers say: "[The god] Tash and Aslan are only two different names for You Know Who." Later they use the hybrid or compound name Tashlan to make their point. At the end of this last book in the Narnia series one of the outsiders, a Calorman named Emeth (which is the transliteration of the Hebrew word for "truth"), who has been a life-long worshiper of Tash, approaches Aslan. To this Tash-server Aslan says, "Son, thou art welcome." Emeth counters, "I am no son of Thine but a servant of Tash." Aslan rejoins: "All the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me." This is a clear indicator that for Lewis the non Christ-worshiper may be received into heaven. Similarly, in another fictional setting, Jane Studdock, an unbeliever, says to Ransom the Pendragon: "I know nothing of Maleldil [the Christ-figure]. But I place myself in obedience to you." To her acknowledgment Ransom replies: It is enough for the present. This is the courtesy of Deep Heaven that when you mean well, He always takes you to have meant better than you know. It will not be for always. He is very jealous. He will have you for no one but Himself in the end. But for tonight, it is enough.
This issue raises the question of Christianity in relation to other world religions. Lewis said: "I couldn’t believe that 999 religions were completely false and the remaining one true." Similarly he stated: "We are not pronouncing all other religions to be totally false, but rather saying that in Christ whatever is true in all religions is consummated and perfected." Kathryn Lindskoog wrote: "Lewis expressed hope that many true seekers like Akhenaton and Plato, who never had a chance to find Christ in this life, will find Him in the next one."

I never realized C.S. Lewis held those convictions. That's unfortunate. That is a serious misconception of the scriptures, however, I still believe he made a great contribution to Christian literature in many ways. There are always going to be people we don't agree with, but we can always find things we both agree on too.

Lora, I actually believe he is right. I am not stating or I am not interested in debating this as an issue but I have to view this as an important understanding since anyone in history outside of the reach of the gospel had to rely on something more , something more like special grace. For me it seems faith is always an apparent aspect of all people and this could always be tapped into for revelation. Anyway it is interesting that he is not alone in this conception for there are many theologians on both sides of the atlantic who agree with him.
Later,SG

People used to believe the world was flat and they were wrong. Why do people try to use what someone else said or quote them as the be all end all. I personally want my opinion to be my own. Therefore, what anyone else has said on the subject is immaterial to me.

I think the Word of THE ONE TRUE GOD speaks for itself clearly to the heart of those who accept Jesus as savior. No theologian or historian is reliable, that job is fully encompassed by the Holy Spirit. Trust in He who is greater than all.

My point exactly!!

A great Man if God close to the end of his life and losing his memory said this in one of his last messages from the pulpit. "I don't remember a lot anymore, but this I do remember, I WAS a great sinner, but HE IS a great savior." Halleuah, NUFF SAID